/undead.link/

Papa Dragon

Sat, 06 Feb 2021 14:51:52 -0800

Hello Fediverse!

Quick question: XMPP or Matrix?

The idea: offering my friends & family a decentralized alternative to Whatsapp, Signal, Telegram & co, for instant messaging and audio/video calls. As many of them live in areas where fiber-optic internet is available, having them running their own tiny server @home would be the preferred option.

XMPP:

pros : very easy standalone install and setup, clients available for most platforms and quite easy to use

cons : Metronome, the server used in YunoHost does not allow audio/video calls

Matrix :

pros : apparently most secure solution in the market, Synapse server available in YunoHost

cons : standalone install and setup of a server is quite complex, apparenlty a little less user-friendly for the average Joe

Any thoughts?

chava

Sat, 06 Feb 2021 19:09:41 -0800

Currently checking out @Snikket for a small #XMPP server for friends and fam.

I like their way of attempting to simplify for prospective admins and users. Server is based on Prosody. Android app based on Conversations. iOS app (upcoming) based on Siskin. Audio and video calls work from the start. No official desktop app (yet?), but web client seems to be next on priority list.

https://snikket.org/

Tanja

Sun, 07 Feb 2021 01:06:41 -0800

@chava I saw the app on F-Droid a while back, but never got around to checking it out. Have they solved the offline delivery issues I mentioned in my last comment?

chava

Sat, 06 Feb 2021 21:48:40 -0800

Also, just came across this recent conversation in the yunohost forums describing how to get audio/video calls to work with yunohost-metronome. Looking like it's on it's way to become a default function (as it should be).

Tanja

Sun, 07 Feb 2021 00:19:08 -0800

I'm still struggling with this, as well. I'm not using Yunohost; I installed both Synapse and Prosody directly.

From the server end, between those two, Prosody wins, no doubt. Synapse is a true PITA to administer, and the documentation is definitely on the lacking side.

But from a user perspective, Matrix wins. Element is an extremely well designed client, available on all major platforms. One of my main complaints with XMPP is sending files, especially in connection with OMEMO. So far, the only client where I've managed to share pictures somewhat reliably is Conversations. XMPP wasn't really designed for offline messages and offline file transfer. If the http_upload module is installed, and the receiving client is offline, a link gets sent to download. Conversations was the only client I tried which downloads the content internally; all the others sent the link to the browser. Which is fine for unencrypted content, but with OMEMO, it needs to be decrypted in the client which has the keys. Also, cross-device usage is a lot more reliable. If you're writing with someone from your phone, and then turn your computer on, it's all there; not something that works reliably with XMPP, either.
Also, keys: Element let's you verify your own devices, so that your connections won't have to verify them every time you install or re-install or sign into a new browser. Definitely a plus for less techie users.
PITA or not, at this point I would recommend Matrix / Synapse / Element.

Papa Dragon

Sun, 07 Feb 2021 01:51:21 -0800

@chava I also have my eyes on Snikket. I would have tried an install but the only way for the moment is to use docker which I'm not comfortable with. But I like the way they sell it.

About YunoHost, I saw the thread too. Can't wait for this update, and I'm not the only one.

@Tanja I also have the feeling that Matrix is a few steps ahead. But it's more complex. And somehow my brain rejects the idea that you get better results with more complex solutions. And there' s nostalgia also :) (I discovered XMPP during the MSN/Yahoo Messenger days...)
So, if I try to consider things as a robot would do, Matrix is the way to go. Unless Snikket and/or further versions of YunoHost solve the problems you pointed...

If I was to share my server I'd definitely keep both, strongly suggesting to use Matrix for the moment. But that's not what I have in mind, I see fiber optics and an army Raspberry Pi(s?), NUC-like mini computers or cheap rented VPS each running their own services. So choosing a single weapon for this future army of mine would make more sense.

(Note that this army would be like 5 or 6 servers,10 tops, so the World in my hands is not exactly the day after tomorrow's plan)

chava

Sun, 07 Feb 2021 07:21:51 -0800

@Tanja
I haven't tested offline messages or offline file transfers on Snikket. I'll put it on my to-do list. However, that really appears to be the whole point of Snikket. That is, basic things that you expect to work should just work (as long as Snikket clients are used with a Snikket server).

@Papa Dragon
I remember recently seeing steps for manually setting up Snikket (without Docker). They've also mentioned the desire to make installing a server more accessible including getting it on Yunohost.

Tanja

Sun, 07 Feb 2021 09:33:43 -0800

@chava

I remember recently seeing steps for manually setting up Snikket (without Docker).

That would be preferable. I don't have very much trust in docker, especially since by default, it runs as root. I looked at the documentation to get it to run as an unprivileged user, and was totally put off. Seemed too complicated to make it worthwhile, so I try to avoid it altogether.

Papa Dragon

Sun, 07 Feb 2021 16:32:05 -0800

Synapse is a true PITA to administer

Ok, now I see your point @Tanja

I was doing a few tests prior to launching my switch-to-matrix campaign and suddenly realized I seemed to have no admin rights with my account as nothing related appeared in Element.

So, I checked the YunoHost package page and saw I needed to run a PostgreSQL command to grant myself admin rights. Handling anything related to databases is probably my most dreaded irrational fear as a homeserver sysadmin, but it was just copy/pasting so I did it. Successfully or not, I'm not really sure.

Unfortunately I then decided I should close registrations on my server and while browsing to find how to do that found this guide...

No.

Of course, I'd fancy a nice admin UI, but I can understand that there are other priorities. I don't mind using a few simple command lines or editing readable configuration files. But this. No. It's way beyond what I feel like handling.

I'm going to rethink this. I'll probably end up launching a switch-to-XMMP campaign. By the way, @chava , is there any chance you can help me locate a page with instructions for a Snikket install without docker? I did a quick search, but found nothing relevant so far.

chava

Sun, 07 Feb 2021 21:51:33 -0800

yeah... after I posted here, I went to try to look for the dockerless reference I thought I saw but it turns out there was actually a docker step I overlooked in my initial glance. sorry!
🤦

Papa Dragon

Sun, 07 Feb 2021 23:17:28 -0800

Oh boy.

Monday morning, fresh start, it's gonna be a great week, woohoo!

Tanja

Sun, 07 Feb 2021 23:27:32 -0800

This is how I set it up. Actually, the initial installation is not that difficult. Make sure you also follow the federation guide after you set it up. If you need help, let me know and I'll see what I can do; while I'm not an expert, I did get mine to work.

Tanja

Sun, 07 Feb 2021 23:50:39 -0800

Also, Reverse Proxy.

Those three guides are the important ones to get it up and running.

Papa Dragon

Mon, 08 Feb 2021 03:19:35 -0800

Actually it seems to work quite well when installed with Yunohost. But it's always good to know that a clean manual install is feasable. It's less complex than what I feared.

I think the guide I really need to read is the moderation guide. That one looks rather complex, like way more than you'd expect for administrating/moderating tasks. Maybe I should also take a look at third-party UI administration tools that seem to exist.

Anyhow, the choice between Matrix & XMPP is still to be made....

Tanja

Mon, 08 Feb 2021 03:56:10 -0800

@Papa Dragon

Maybe I should also take a look at third-party UI administration tools that seem to exist.

If you find any of those worth trying out, let me know. I haven't really looked into this yet.

I'm only using it with one other person right now, so there isn't too much clutter just yet. For the same reason, I don't need to worry about moderation at this point.

Anyhow, the choice between Matrix & XMPP is still to be made....

Same here, which is why I still have instances of both running.

The other alternative that I had been looking into is DeltaChat. The problem with it is that my best friend still has an ancient Yahoo address with no IMAP / SMTP access, and it doesn't work with e-mail services like ProtonMail or Tutanota for the same reason, so it's also not a perfect solution.

Papa Dragon

Mon, 08 Feb 2021 05:06:24 -0800

https://github.com/Awesome-Technologies/synapse-admin

Two options: run it with Node.js or run a docker container. Choose your poison.